rant rant rant RAAAAAAAAAANT

[luciazephyr]

So sometimes at work, if you're working drive-thru, the local churches will have you pamphlets along with their money. It's polite to take them, I suppose.

I got another today. A few co-workers giggled over the typoes in it, then I tried to hand it off to someone, mostly 'cause God pamphlets make me giggle inappropriately and I don't like looking like an asshole to the people around me.

So... let's call her S. S comes up to me and looks at it and says I should save it for someone who needs saving. I, assuming she's joking (because, well, look who she's saying it to), sarcastically say, "What, like me?" "No, for someone without faith."

Suddenly things are less funny.

I repeat myself, hoping she'll catch the hint, "What, like me?" And she gives me THAT LOOK. Atheists know what I'm talking about, the one that's half surprise (ohemgee, non-Christians exist?!) and half pity, like we're some kind of idiot child that is so misguided and foolish.

"So are you an... agnostic?"
"No, I'm an atheist. That's why I was trying to hand off the paper to someone else."
"Oh. Well, I don't need it. I have God in my life. I'll pray for your immortal soul."

Dead serious. Fuck, I hate it when Christians do that. Especially since it hasn't happened to me in a long while so I've been getting along well with the religious fuzzywuzzies (to co-otp a Joss term). But I hate hate hate hate hate when they do that.

Listen. I do not need anyone to pray for my immortal soul. Honestly. I am not a bad person, really. If there is a God, he doesn't have any serious reasons to send me to Hell.

And here's the kicker. Here's the thing I think most of these "I'll pray for you" folk don't understand.

If God is willing to send a decent person to Hell because they don't believe in him, I don't want to go to Heaven anyway.

Let's say tomorrow God shows up on a TV call-in show. I will call and ask him where Douglas Adams ended up. If he says Hell, then I'm going to forget his existence and go about my life as if nothing changed. Because Douglas tried to be a good man. He was funny and insightful and climbed a mountain wearing a ridiculous rhino costume to raise money for charity. If he got sent to Hell, it's only because God is an egotistical fuck who can't handle people being skeptical.

So Yeah. To sum up this rant: If you pray to Jesus for my immortal soul, I'm gonna pray to the FSM that you open your fucking eyes and stop being a condescending twatwaffle.

[/tirade]

-Lucy

Comments

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

Atheists know what I'm talking about, the one that's half surprise (ohemgee, non-Christians exist?!)

That's...really condescending. Perhaps you shouldn't judge people with blanket statements if you don't want them to do the same.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

I don't judge people with blanket statements. I'm talking about this certain group of religious folk who look at atheists like we're idiots. Not all religious folk are like that (I live in rural America, I should know, many are totally cool with you if your Jewish or atheist or whatever). But there are some.

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

I certainly understand your sentiments being from the low country myself, and am no stranger to people trying to "save" me, but what I don't understand is the hostility, and if you'll excuse the expression, the holier than thou attitude. This isn't some eternal pissing contest over who is right and who is wrong, and I really don't see the point in being upset if someone seems surprised by your religious view (or lack thereof) and asks questions about it.

However, I do agree with your opinion about atheists being sent to hell. I don't really think that the "I'll pray for you bit" was implying that, but that's just me.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

I have hostility because many religious people assume they're doing me a favor by saying they'll pray for me. No offense, but if I wanted someone to pray for me, I wouldn't be an atheist. And S wasn't asking questions about it, she was making herself feel superior about the poor silly misguided atheist who didn't understand God's love. And the attitude she has, that many people have, that atheism is lacking in something, that we're missing out because we don't have faith, is viciously insulting to me. I spent years figuring out what I did and didn't believe and I expect others who have done the same to show me as much respect in daily life as I do them.*

"I'll pray for your immortal soul" implies my soul is in danger. I think she was implying that.

* ranting in LJ doesn't count. I would never utter a word of this to a person's face and I recognize how hurtful it can be to people of faith.

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps she really does care about your well being and praying is her way of wishing you well in the future. Then again, she might want you to burn, I personally don't know.

What I'm trying to get across is that it's about the individual and not the institution. Some lady insulted you, not Christianity. It's a school of thought, a philosophy, and a belief system. It's the people that take it and decide what to do with it.

As far as those people who choose to belittle you and teach you what they deem to be the proper way, I can only offer the time honored "Cool story, bro" approach. You're right, you do deserve respect, but by becoming upset, you're only hurting yourself.

[thene]

A coworker who I really like once asked if she could pray for me - I was about to go away for a week or so and she wanted to pray for me to have a safe journey. I said yes. Because a) it wasn't about something alien to my beliefs - a safe trip is a safe trip - and b) she'd asked and not just assumed it would be okay, even though she didn't really know anything of my religious beliefs.

That was about not an institution or an individual, but about friendship between equals. However, I HAVE had rude strangers hassling me with their religion, and it's clear that their religion is the reason they feel entitled to do this. Some sects of Christianity encourage preaching at strangers and praying in their general direction as some kind of 'witnessing' or 'spreading the good news'. All Christian groups encourage conversion, and promote the idea that membership of their sect is normative. I think that nonchristians have every right to dislike these aspects of American Christianity.

Also no, being pissed off because someone was disrespectful towards your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) is not 'only hurting yourself'. It is okay to express negative feelings towards people who fail to respect you, and it causes less hurt to oneself than suppressing your reactions in the name of avoiding disruption.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[thene]

I really don't see the point in being upset if someone seems surprised by your religious view (or lack thereof) and asks questions about it.

Idk, I think it's pretty damn rude to assume someone is the same religion as you and then to try to foist your religion on them when they tell you otherwise. Praying for someone's immortal soul when they have not asked for this or even okayed it seems kinda skeevy for me. You could call it nonconsensual religiosity. What if I don't want my immortal soul to wind up in a Christian heaven?

(At the extreme end of this phenomenon, you get the Mormon post-mortem baptisms of Holocaust victims, which is made of WTFIdonteven)

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

I really don't think that being surprised that someone is an atheist is rude. It's not exactly something that you come across very often. I live in a mostly Southern Baptist community. I don't get upset when someone says "Oh, you're Catholic? What's that like? " and then asks me questions about it. Why would it be considered "foisting my religion" to be curious and ask about someone's way of life?


I'm not even going to touch on the non-con stuff because it's ridiculous and has no place in this discussion. My initial point (first comment) was about hypocrisy. That's all. I thought that it was rather unfair to be angry at someone for belittling her(Lucy) about her religious viewpoints, while at the same time posting a rant that looked down on the woman for being one of those Christians.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

She didn't ask what it was like. She showed no interest outside the "omg, an atheist, must pray for her soul." If she wanted to ask me about it, I'd have been thrilled to tell her, but no. That didn't happen.

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

Derp, guess I read it wrong. My apologies. I am sorry that she wasn't more tolerant of your beliefs. (Is that right word for it? This is unfamiliar territory for me, sorry. ) Maybe you should make your own papers to hand back about Atheism...

[thene]

I don't get upset when someone says "Oh, you're Catholic? What's that like? " and then asks me questions about it.

In the post, Lucia related this:

"So are you an... agnostic?"
"No, I'm an atheist. That's why I was trying to hand off the paper to someone else."
"Oh. Well, I don't need it. I have God in my life. I'll pray for your immortal soul."


That is not 'What's that like?' and there are no questions about it. No curiosity is expressed about Lucia's way of life - only an initial refusal to accept that it is her way of life, and then a statement that she needs praying for (irrespective of her opinion on the subject). The comparison in your comment therefore seems invalid.

Why would it be considered "foisting my religion" to be curious and ask about someone's way of life?

As I just explained, that isn't what happened in the post, so I suggest you reread the post and figure it out.

[thene]

Oh lol, last time I was working food service here in the southern US I got tips wrapped in prayer cards sometimes, and by sometimes I mean 'way more than anyone else who worked there did'. Guess I look like a devil-worshipper. :P It's so rude. In my current job, back at Eastertime I had one customer go on at me about how it was nice that the establishment was closed on Easter Day because we could all go to church and celebrate the empty cross; back in December, someone told me to say 'happy christmas' instead of 'happy holiday' because WITHOUT CHRIST THERE WOULDN'T BE A HOLIDAY - yaaaaaaay for blinding ignorance of not only all other faiths but also your own. What.

It's pure entitlement. I know I can't go around telling strangers to worship Set, but they sure feel like they can demand that I pay my precious attention to their god.

re. the end of your post - early on in Les Miserables there's a chapter about a bishop speaking with an atheist on his deathbed, and it ends with the atheist remaining a an atheist and the bishop telling other people that the atheist is going to heaven anyway. It's sweet, but still entitled in a way.

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

Set's pretty pro, but I'm more of a Hathor kind of gal. :3

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

I always tell people happy holidays or, when it's that week, happy Hanukkah. Because i do have some affection for the way I was raised.


That's the thing that's so hard to explain to religious people. I even talked to Mum about it today and she just didn't get it. I genuinely hope there isn't anything after death, no afterlife, no heaven or hell, no reincarnation (though the last isn't so bad). I think having something after death cheapens life. If you know you're going to have eternal paradise when you're dead, why would you waste time trying to live this life to its fullest and trying to better the world for the short time you're in it.

IDK. The concept of heaven always bothered me.

[thene]

I used to think 'happy holidays' sounded silly (we don't say it in the UK, so it was one of those Weird Foreign Things) but in a US context I've found it really useful, especially when the random strangers you're being paid to say it to are obviously non-Christian.

I agree - the logic of heaven always bothered me too, even as a kid; who exactly goes there, how good do you have to be, how evil would you have to be to go to hell, etc etc. (Knowing how many different answers different Christian sects have come up with on this one doesn't exactly help.) These days I'm just plain uninterested in any possible life after death because I refuse to trade off present certainties for future maybes-probably-nots. Even if there were some kind of afterlife, why should I care?

If I might interject (please don't hate me)

[moonlitsiren.livejournal.com]

If you know you're going to have eternal paradise when you're dead, why would you waste time trying to live this life to its fullest and trying to better the world for the short time you're in it.

Because this life is a gift. It's a chance better yourself and the world around you.

[sarken.livejournal.com]

*applause of agreement*

[peapods42.livejournal.com]

A resounding and kind of ironic A-FUCKING-MEN.

[fofomazuzu.livejournal.com]

Aw, sorry hon.

I had a similar experience recently. Someone on my FB made a status about talking with a non-Christian and then went on to say that they were to go to hell unless they repented. I told them that if they believe in a merciful and compassionate God, God would forgive a non-believer and then let them in (I researched before I posted that, a correct translation doesn't condemn non-believers to Hell, and most mentions of Hell are in parables and are symbols for judgement), you don't say that someone is going to hell for that. They continued to be ignorant so I unfriended them, I didn't feel like fighting.

[amethyst-wolf.livejournal.com]

It's always awkward around people who insist that their ways should/must be yours, but I usually try to laugh it off. I've been a pagan for over 10 years, and it's sometimes difficult dealing with people who insist that I'm evil incarnate/kill babies/sacrifice animals, especially since I certainly have no recollection of any of that.

tl;dr I usually brush people off with a "cool story, bro" and a smile, and most people get the hint. I suppose I'm trolling with that, in a sense, but for me - well, I think there's no reason in getting angry, since some people genuinely don't realize how they affect others (not that it's an excuse, mind you), and it's getting harder to tell who has ill-mannered-but-good-intentions, and who's just being a jackass.

Now, all that being said? Yeah, S. was a schmuck, and needs to pick up some manners and consideration for others.

[heidi-wiggin.livejournal.com]

I give you internet high-fives! I am also an Atheist and I find the lack of respect and human kindness from religious folks totally hypocritical. I also think it's odd that I've only ever been proselytized by various christians, never once has a muslim, hindu, jew, or buddhist tried to force their beliefs on me.

[kylawild.livejournal.com]

I am apparently late to this discussion but felt like saying something.

There are Christians out there that make me slightly ashamed to admit that I am one myself. I am not ashamed of my faith but I am bothered about the possibility of being lumped in with people like the one that you were talking to. Sorry about that because I don't get that mentality that we are supposed to be forcing our way of life on people. I have yet to find that in the Bible anywhere that that's the way to go.

Those tracts are kinda hilarious though because of the typos and the horrible grammar. Not sure how those are supposed to be productive. I work at a Christian store and at a regular one and we'll have people come in to both of them that have told me that they will pray for me. I am not shy about telling people that that is already being taken care of. Of course, I've had a couple tell me that I was going to hell which had me laughing in their face, but oh well.

Basic gist of this was sorry she offended you and please don't think we're all pushy bastards.