Ugh, when is Lea showing up, I'm sick of this D8

[luciazephyr]

:still slogging through Proven Guilty:

Anyone else really skeeved by the entire Molly thing in this book? Like, side-eying Jim Butcher every time she shows up?

Magnificent rack notwithstanding, Molly was still, in every important way, a child. (page 237)

OH HARRY DRESDEN, NO.

Or, in this case, considering the entire book thus far: OH JIM BUTCHER, NO.

See, big age gaps don't really bother me in fiction unless one of the parties is underage. Molly is seventeen. Harry is, IIRC, 29 or 30 by this book. Also, STOP EYING HER UP, HARRY. I was okay when you did it and then felt guilty about it because, fuck, everyone does that sometimes, but you stopped feeling bad about it and I am not amused.

Also, like, three pages earlier, it's established Harry won't bang Murphy because he's only interested in serious relationships.

THE IRONY HURTS ME OH JESUS OW.




On the other hand, when I am not shaking my head at Jimmy B, I do find it extremely interesting how Manly Man Harry Dresden always seems to be flustered and taken aback by the many, many sexual advances he receives in the books. For such a character, he seems to be accidentally coded in a stereotypically feminine way-- as far as I've seen, it's women who get this kind of situation in fiction, not men. It's almost like an Unwanted Harem, which is a trope I don't recall seeing outside Anime/Manga. There is some kind of meta message here, having all this sex-positive subtext around a character how isn't comfortable with sex, really. I could go further and link this to Harry's whole Have I Mentioned I'm Heterosexual Today thing, but I have a tummyache, so I won't. But it's there.

Comments

[samjohnsson]

On the other hand, when I am not shaking my head at Jimmy B, I do find it extremely interesting how Manly Man Harry Dresden always seems to be flustered and taken aback by the many, many sexual advances he receives in the books.
[snip for short]
I could go further and link this to Harry's whole Have I Mentioned I'm Heterosexual Today thing, but I have a tummyache, so I won't. But it's there.

Uh-huh. I would so like to tell you PG is an aberration. Also, glad I'm not the only one seeing both of that. Especially the latter, when he has, in canon, gone into fairly explicit examination of, well, almost every guy he meets.

[luciazephyr]

I'd love it if you told me that after PG, the whole Molly/Harry thing stops coming up every few chapters? 8D?

He does examine everyone! This is why I loved Blood Rites so much. His Resolute Heterosexuality at the porn shoot inspired much lulz. The way he toes the line between taking notice of and actually appreciating men is interesting. For an allegedly totally straight guy, he often uses language that is very complimentary.

[samjohnsson]

I would love to tell you the same thing. I will say that it does not surface as strongly. White Night, Small Favor, and Turn Coat are all good reads, in spite of certain failings in each. (I have feelings regarding Changes. Very strong feelings.)

I don't know whether Butcher is trying to appear open and modern and failing slightly, or if he's changing the character, with little in-narrative support, for some odd reason.

[luciazephyr]

(We can discuss your Changes feelings when I've done more than skimmed the book. Hell of a read, that one. Not sure how I feel about it.)

Hm. Is that considered open and modern? I wonder if any of the UST is purposeful. Part of me thinks it was a mistake, given the whiplash in Harry and Marcone's rapport in the beginning of Changes. Marcone is the one he clearly had the most subtext with and their relationship went completely dry in that book. But I'm waiting for their next talk for confirmation of that theory.

[polarisnorth]

I am always skeeved and unnerved by the way Molly is presented in these books. There's several parts of Proven Guilty -- the bit with the shower, among other things -- that I have an incredibly visceral oh hell no reaction to. It's my least favorite of the books.

Harry's Have I Mentioned I Am Heterosexual Today thing amuses the hell out of me. Harry, you comment way too much on the attractiveness of Marcone, Thomas, and Michael to be as heterosexual as you claim.

[luciazephyr]

THE SHOWER SCENE IS WHERE I AM NOW. It's what inspired this post, that and the ending bit with the water which I skipped ahead and read when I skimmed the entire book. Oh GOD, wtf is with Proven Guilty.


I don't care how hard Butcher tries to backpedal it, Harry and Marcone have insane chemistry. If John Marcone was Johanna Marcone, EVERYONE would see it. Please see: 90% of their conversations in White Night. JFC.

[polarisnorth]

Is Proven Guilty the one with the horrible scene near the end where Molly goes all Hot For Teacher and Harry shuts her down in the most TWISTED AND UNSETTLING WAY POSSIBLE? I either skimmed over or completely repressed that bit, but I know it happened.

The awesome chemistry they have is why Death Masks and White Knight are some of my favorites, though Dead Beat is probably my overall favorite -- and it does have the scene where Marcone cheerfully fucks destiny to save Harry.

[luciazephyr]

That's the one. I just want to shake Harry. He really is very stupid at times, and usually I find that nice and humanizing, but sometimes, no, I wanna shake him.


DEATH MASKS OH GOD. "Blow me."
WHITE NIGHT OH GOD. "Say please."

And I love Marcone joyfully playing white knight for Harry in Dead Beat, but nothing is better than the Erlking. Harry/Erlking, you bet your ass I ship it.

[polarisnorth]

It's the chivalry that makes me want to punch him. Also keeping secrets from people ostensibly for their own good/safety.

That is... not a ship I want to ship. o.O On the other hand, I can totally see Carlos happily flirting with Harry and Harry being completely oblivious (and possibly Carlos counting on that.)

[luciazephyr]

But I get the chivalry, and how it's not something he can easily shake off because it's somehow become ingrained in him, but it's acknowledged in the narrative as a bad thing that causes more trouble than it's worth.


YOU DO WANT TO SHIP IT. You just don't know it yet because you haven't read thishot bit of fic. Eats, Shoots, and Leaves convinced everyone I've shown it to.

Carlos, huh... Hm... That I never considered, actually, because so far he does peg as straight. Hilariously so. Maybe this will change when I get to White Night proper.

[polarisnorth]

I feel like the chivalry is tied to the skeevy attitudes towards women, though, and particularly Molly, where it becomes tied up with his actual role as protector/teacher.

Carlos is probably straight, but he also strikes me as so generally well-balanced and comfortable in his life and sexuality that he might well engage in flirty banter with other guys without intending it to actually go anywhere.

[luciazephyr]

I had a minor epiphany about Harry in the LJ side of this post. In the canon, Harry's explicitly or implicitly been used in sexual ways that are kind of off-putting when coupled with his abandonment/betrayal issues. Elaine, his first lover, "died," but actually didn't but neglected to inform him of her survival for ten goddamn years. The Leanansidhe's ritual on him when he was young had some heavy sexual tones, and between the blood loss and glamour, there is no way he consented there. His mentor tried to non-consensually invade his mind. He probably got brutalized by the Red Court at the end of Grave Peril (and very likely raped, as the books imply a couple of times).

What do you think of the idea that all this is the root of his chivalry/commitment/heteronormative issues? He's been burned very badly several times in the past and lost his personal agency at the hands of people he trusted.

I think maybe the reason he resolutely wants a monogamous heterosexual relationship where he can have an alpha male role is because his bad experiences in the past make him want a relationship where he has the power. I'm not saying he wants to dominate someone, but he definitely doesn't want to be taken advantage of again. Getting in a stable relationship that society told him growing up is healthy and normal makes sense.

Thoughts? Am I reading too much into that?

[polarisnorth]

That... makes a great deal of sense, in addition to being extremely disturbing. It's also pretty consistent, though I would be surprised (and impressed) if Butcher actually thought through the implications of all of that. I actually hadn't picked up on the implications of what happened at the Red Court.

(Re: domination, though -- don't you think the sex scene with Susan in Death Masks maybe does imply at least a willingness in that respect?)

[luciazephyr]

To add to the evidence: In Storm Front, when Bianca feasts on one of her girls, it's written very sexually, but Harry is extremely skeeved out by it and very not turned on. In Grave Peril, after Lea takes some of Susan's memories, she gets a sexual rush from it. A lot of sexuality in the series just rings as Bad Touch to him, so I'm thinking I might be onto something here...

Oh, I'm 90% sure the Red Court raped him. The way it's mentioned in the later books, his very, very adamant refusal to give details and the fact he says they "did things" to him, I'm not sure what else that could be implying.


The sex scene in DM is a special case. In DM, Susan is a powerful woman he loves who is nearly equal to him in power. He's already proposed marriage to her. Keeping in mind this was before the Maggie thing came to light, I think they were on level enough footing that he was okay with that sort of domination play. So, in theory, he could be very sexually open, but it takes a lot of trust.

That said, if their positions were reversed, I think he'd freak out. He's been there, done that pretty much with Lea, sadly.

[polarisnorth]

There's also the part in Turn Coat where Lara feeds on her cousin, and it's a twisted parody of eroticism (particularly the heterosexual male's girl-on-girl fantasy). In fact all of Harry's dealings with the White Court emphasize how unpleasant and freaky they are about sex and sexuality, and Harry is never seriously attracted to any White Court vampire, even Thomas; he might know they're attractive but what they are makes that completely unpalatable. I have to think that's a reflection of what happened at the Red Court. (And I see what you mean about that now, I just didn't pick up on it -- it's not something I was looking for, tbh. But then it took me several years and almost a dozen rereads to pick up a similarly coded reference in a Pterry book.)

Okay, that makes sense. It was also partly driven by necessity and desperation, which might have overcome some barriers that would usually be there.

[luciazephyr]

ffff I'm gonna have to type up a whole meta post about this now. I'll do it tomorrow, as I am super tired. But wow, whether Jim Butcher intended it or not, Harry Dresden's issues are really interesting, albeit depressing.