"WOULD HAVE BEEN BLOND AND WORN A CRUCIFIX" GUIZE. That's gonna eat at me, duders.

[luciazephyr]

So I'm sippin' my morning tea (yes, I know it's 1:30, long story) and reading TV Tropes. As you do. I stumble upon What Could Have Been, which is a collection of what some of your favorites stories might have been before circumstances or Executive Meddling forced a change.

And I find this:



sdjjkhgfjkdgjkfd

Okay, I'd heard the MGS4 one before (though the staff mutiny is news to me and frankly fucking awesome), but MGS2?! Oh my god, I know the game's ending had to be changed because of the Too Soon, but there is.... there is so much awesome right there. And not just my wee slasher heart going "HAL AND DAVE, BOYS, ILU~" but Snake actually having a decent disguise, the even more mindfucky "Is Rose Real?" thing, and the Hudson Bridge thing (not shown here, go look at the entry)?

I love MGS2, don't get me wrong. It and MGS3 are my absolute favorite games of all time (except Okami, but even Kojima is powerless against that masterpiece). But I wanna go to the Alternate Universe where that was MGS2. Some of those ideas are so epic, I'm pissed they aren't canon. This is the first time I wished TVT did cite their sources because maaaaan. I want more info.

lol staff mutiny, haha Kojima, you twatwaffle

-Lucy

Comments

[amethyst-wolf.livejournal.com]

To be frank, I can't recall the sources myself, but- as far as I know, these are all legit. This isn't the first time I've seen/heard of these alternative canon points, and I kind of wish they were used instead of what was, to be frank.

When I get home, I can check and see if I have any source links for you in my favorites or something.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

M-maybe he'll remake the game one day with the original plot, since, yanno, the cut-down MGS2 made very little sense? I know, he won't, but... :| When I rule the world, I'll force him to hand over his original design docs for the good of humanity.

Ooooh, I'd appreciate that hugely, thank you! :3

[clooney.livejournal.com]

...hfkhfd whaaaat.
That Rose thing would be awesome. And hjgfkjd first names.
I remember reading about Pliskin's original design but I forget... where.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

I am now convinced that the only reason Snake/Otacon isn't canon is because Kojima didn't have the time to set it up in MGS2. Let me have my delusions.

BLOND. CRUCIFIX. :feels this needs reiterating:

[clooney.livejournal.com]

I... I totally agree. I'm pretty much convinced now. :|

CRUCIFIX. I DID NOT READ ABOUT THAT. IT MAKES ME WONDER.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Soooo. MGS is now the gayest video game series in the history of ever? ♥


CRUCIFIX. TELL ME THAT WOULDN'T BE SEXY.

[clooney.livejournal.com]

Like it wasn't before?

I... I DON'T KNOW. ...WHY WOULD HE HAVE IT?

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Fact.

WELL, IT'D BE A BETTER DISGUISE, THAT'S FOR DAMN SURE. "LOL I'M IN DIFFERENT CLOTHES NO ONE WILL KNOOOOW"

[thene]

By my reading, Snake/Otacon is canon, but so is Snake/Meryl and look where canon sent that one. Stomping on any possible sentiment arising from the previous game seems to be one of canon's kinks. So I see MGS4 as the part where they're relationship's going to shit but they're just still living together for the sake of the kid and then they GET BACK TOGETHER BECAUSE BAAAAAAW. I need to write fic in that vein sometime.

And gaah, CRUCIFIX. The...the most fucked up thing about that, imo, is the bit near the end of MG2 where his fuckbuddy bff is dying in his arms and he says 'You won't be alone, Frank. Gustava is waiting for you.' That is one HELL of a wrong setup line for a zombie cyborg ninja subplot, and in my headcanon is the crux of Snake's opinions on religion. Erm, sorry, I'm babbling now.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, I agree it's canon but I'm pretty sure 90% of MGS gamers would take great offense to that. Remember, most still don't believe Ocelot loved BB. And I'm of the opinion MGS4 never happened. :is only half kidding:

WOW. Huh. That's interesting. I think the crucifix iswould've been just a part of his disguise, but the notion that Snake does believe in an afterlife is kind of interesting. And makes me wanna hug him. :3

[thene]

a) Did, certainly, but - I'm of a mind that the whole ninja thing distorted his opinions on the topic considerably not least because I ship Snake/Fox like burning, duh.

a) he, like BB, can see the Sorrow, which complicates it even more.

[tarastara.livejournal.com]

That Rose thing would have made the game so much better.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Especially if it means they took out the Empty Room bit with the OVERLY MELODRAMATIC PIANO SWELL.

[dontdiefox.livejournal.com]

Chinaman/Fatman is so canon.

I like Raiden - I LIKE EVERYONE - but playing as a character like the Fear would've been so much fun. I also wish they would've gone with the original ending for MGS4.

(Oh, and I made that pickleturkeyeggsomethingelse thing, I just hafta find the camera's USB to show you.)

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

W-we know next to nothing about Chinaman, how can you ship them....

I love Raiden! :D AND NO, HAL AND DAVE NEED A HAPPY ENDING :hugs her boys to her bosom, hisses at all you Downer Ending peoples:


:intrigued and scared all at once:

[dontdiefox.livejournal.com]

"He got a small appearance as the dead man with the long black hair in Fatman's arms during a flashback."

^ ...How can I not?

THEY CAN STILL BE MARRIED IN HEAVEN. OR HELL. PROBABLY HELL. OR BE GHOSTS AND HAUNT A RANDOM BED AND BREAKFAST IN ST.AUGUSTINE.

*quite fascinated it's delicious other than the pickles*

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

Hi, I wrote that entry.

Check this out. It's a translation of Kojima's original game plan and full of interesting factoids.

Also, in my headcanon - Vamp got his powers from Chinaman by sucking his blood after his death. Also, Pliskin was blond, screw visual canon.

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

He certainly acts like one.

"OH GOD I'VE DISCOVERED SOMETHING TERRIBLE ABOUT THE BOMBS"
"wut im gonna disamrm this bomb now"
"PLISKIN NO FOR THE LOVE OF GOD"
fssssssssssssss
"PLISKIN WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO ME"
fffffffffffffffffffffffffsssssss click
"OH GOD NOW I'M GOING TO DIE LIKE I TOLD YOU"
"uhhh. peter. was a brave man. terrible sacrifice. wasnt me. honest."

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

Also, the crucifix - in the game plan, Vamp was going to have a phobia of crucifixes, enough that touching it around Pliskin's neck would prevent him from getting Vamped. So it doesn't say a lot about Snake's religion. My personal headcanon on Snake's religion is that he's one of those secular humanist types who believe all the religions have some truth in them - spiritual, but not actually religious himself.

Oh, and one last MGS2_EXPERT_(PLAYED_334+_TIMES_COMPLETELY) comment - don't listen to all those filthy lies about how all the story was cut out for being too soon. What you lost was a scene where Arsenal Gear ploughed through New York and left a trail of cultural carnage. The scene still happened in plot terms, we just didn't see it. The only other change was the removal of the Twin Towers from the New York skyline.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

I'll do this in points.

1. Fly, is there a MGS trope page you didn't write?

2. Yeeeeeah, Snake is the dumbest man with a genius IQ ever. I the fact that we never see him at the total blond he is in canon really bugs me. But I'm oddly obsessive with the notion that Snake and Otacon dye their hair. It amuses me.

3. My personal headcanon on Snake's religion is that he's one of those secular humanist types who believe all the religions have some truth in them - spiritual, but not actually religious himself.
Oh, don't you sweet-talk me, Fly, it doesn't work. (That is awesome headcanon and yeah, he always seemed kind of spiritual.)

4. .... So even before the cut-down it made no sense. Good to know! :facepalm:

5. Totally unrelated, but I'm watching MGS4 with a friend and she wonders what your thoughts on yaoithe BnB Corps and their sexualization in-game are.

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

1. Yes, but I was responsible for getting the Wiki into MGS with my obsessive entry-pimping, so I started it.

2. I think Snake is the resident Philanthropy stylist and responsible for Otacon's increasingly good haircuts. I'd write a fic about it but it'd be gayer than actual anal sex and I'd get all embarrassed.

3. Snake's probably the most spiritual character in the series, actually. Including the ghost. Which is kind of sweet.

4. MGS2 makes perfect sense if you're batshit like Kojima

5. I don't have enough time for a full essay, so here's some possible interpretations:
Impotence: Hi, here's a sexy woman who's after you but you're injured by her touches, so kill her dead. Plays into fears of age and sterility and physical decay - "sooner or later, your mind will say yes but your body will say no" kind of thing.
Rape squick: Hi, here's a sexy woman and she's going to crawl all over you and not stop, and the only thing you can do about it is fight her off even though you probably don't want to. (When Snake's close to death and doesn't have rations, he'll sometimes shout things like 'What are you doing?!' and 'No! Stop!' and 'Get away from me!' as the BB does her thang, like a rape victim. Snake = man, BB = woman, turning the tables on the traditional scenario (now she has the power to hurt him with her sexual intentions), which leads into possible interpretation No. 3:
Misogyny: Hi, here's a sexy woman whose after you and wants your cock, so kill the crazy slut before she gets her female juices on you 'cause no woman should be stronger than you since you're a man and if she gets you she'll make you weak and hopeless. Women are only safe when they're viewed from a distance as sex objects (through the Camera). If they get close to you, slap that bitch before she starts controlling you.
Inverse misogyny: Hi, here's a sexy woman who you have to shoot to live. But she's a precious woman who needs to be shielded from the world! She shouldn't be here! But you're going to need to shoot the poor little screwed-up princess if you want to continue with the game. Isn't war ugly, because sexy beautiful women get involved? Since you're a man, I suppose it's down to you to use your strength to put her out of her misery, but when you shoot her, feel guilty about it, because you shouldn't hurt precious little women.
Violence as sexuality: Hi, you've just shot down a crazy woman/tank and your heart is pumping and now tits. Hmm, doesn't the excitement feel similar? (Kojima did this one a bit more subtly in MGS1, but contrasting the rush of killing and the rush of sex is something he's done a lot.)
Fanservice: Hi, here's a sexy woman. I wanted to direct naked motion capture of really gorgeous models, and I wanted good boss fights, so - tits! Have fun. (Kojima explicitly said in interviews that your 'reward' for beating the BBs was 'getting to see what they really look like'.


Likely it's several of these, or something else. I don't claim to be Kojima, so you can just pick.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

2. ... I would so read that. Like, I am so crazy about the idea, I just squealed aloud when I read that. And not for slashy reasons- just because HAIR FANON. If you ever wrote it, I'd pimp that out so hard. Watching Act 4, both have really great cuts. ♥

3. :nods: Yeah, especially in the end of MGS2 he does really... I wish I knew how to explain it, but I just think back to his little speech about what he and Hal are working for.

4. No. It doesn't. :p

5. When Snake's close to death and doesn't have rations, he'll sometimes shout things like 'What are you doing?!' and 'No! Stop!' and 'Get away from me!' as the BB does her thang, like a rape victim.
That.... is genuinely terrifying. Oh my god, Kojima, what the hell.

Do you think it's his intent to play into misogyny or that it's not what he meant and he's just being a Male? That's my biggest question and it's always something that bugs me in the cutscenes and makes me unsettled.

Violence as sex- you mean the cigarette-post-boss-fight thing in MGS?

extremely strangled point coming through

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

I think Kojima was misguidedly trying to play off the desire to protect females/keep women out of war, hence all the female soldiers and how they 'showed' that war had become totally corrupt and pervasive in society. Even in my country, which allows openly gay soldiers to fight on the front line, women are barred from certain roles on the battlefield and every time a female soldier dies in Iraq there's a huge crazy media furore and debate (incidentally and not entirely unsurprisingly, it's most of the men who say women shouldn't fight, and all the female soldiers themselves are desperate to get on the front line). That's kind of related - in society, there's a big double standard between violence towards men (they can handle it) and violence towards women (sick). However, as a woman, I don't feel worse about killing women in MGS4 than I feel about killing men. Keep in mind you're rewarded for defeating the girls through non-lethal means by getting dolls for Sunny and camouflauge, and I think it's fair to say - he wanted men to feel bad about beating up women.

I'd say there is some misogyny to it, but I think it's a societal thing (particularly in Japan), rather than Kojima himself being misogynist.

The games are routinely quite sexist, but MGS4 pushed it too far in my opinion, and I felt really quite uncomfortable and angry in a lot of places. Still, I don't think Kojima's at fault so much as society - and, hey, it's the first MGS to pass the Bechdel Test (the only other one is the MGS Graphic Novel, weirdly enough - EVA and The Boss's offscreen chat in MGS3 was not only offscreen but about a man, and implications in MGS1 that Naomi and Mei Ling were good friends and chatting the whole time were just implications.)

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, addendum for clarity - the Bechdel Test-passing scene in the Graphic Novel was a scene between Meryl and Wolf where Wolf was forcing Meryl to watch Snake get tortured, while chiding her for being weak and saying that in Kurdistan she'd never have survived. Not sure whether it passes (because it's somewhat about Snake) but I think it does.

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

Thinking about it, MPO kind of qualifies if you consider two female characters who are the same person who talk to each other about nuclear weapons as a pass. I wouldn't give it to it, though.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

.... Only in MGS. :headshake: Only. In. MGS.

still far more articulate than I am

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

It doesn't help that women get fridged so much in the series. I remember being just exasperated when Olga died because she was powerful, smart, and still very much female, so obviously she got offed. Meryl was pretty badass, the way she came into her own as a competent, kickass chica in MGS4 (I may have a gigantic crush on her). I think I somewhere that gals were annoyed that Johnny saved her in Act V, but I never interpreted that way personally. It was her being awesome but also being allowed to love and be feminine in her own way (since usually strong females in fiction also have to hate men or something I dunno). And partly the series going "lol, Johnny's now a badass" for sheer wtf quality.

The games are routinely quite sexist, but MGS4 pushed it too far in my opinion

Thank god I'm not alone in that. I mean really. I sometimes think I don't really like MGS4. It made me uncomfortable, almost shattered my Otacon love, had the Naomi Thing that just really squicked me so bad, felt the urge to take all the inexplicable weirdness of the previous games and "fix" them with SCIENCE (did they retcon Fortune's CMOA? I forget...), and just.... sdkjhfdjkhg. You know.

[firefly99.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, Blond!Pliskin -