In which I actually talk about the Matter of Chicago

[luciazephyr]

and I don't mean just apologizing for not having written more yet



So. MoC. It's was conceptualized by an idle remark Grene made in a reaction post back when Marcone's short story came out. Turned into my gateway into the fandom, which in turn lead to me meeting Grene the Wonder Beta, making a lot of amazing friends that have kept me going in rough times, and going to Actualfacts Chicago with Binz (aka: the greatest week of my life).

The problem is. That through various means, I think I've progressed a lot as a writer since I started writing it. I've learned how to keep my writing tighter, and how to handle flawed characters sympathetically.

At its core, MoC is equal parts Fix It Fic and primer to TDF. I've been told on many, many occasions that MoC has been a good infodump for people who are interested in the Dresdenverse but who hate the books. And I'm very glad for that. I like that role it apparently has in the fandom, even if I have to breathe into a paper bag sometimes when I think of the implications of that.

But as a Fix It Fic, it's.... oh so lacking. I mean, I try to avoid a lot of the worst skeevy shit through MoC (let's not play Ask Lucy Her Feelings On Proven Guilty tonight). But on the flipside? It's just as fucked up as canon.

Someone who's opinion I greatly respect abruptly called me out on a lot of the power imbalance issues of the story on Twitter, and dragged out a lot of things I fucked up on and was too blind to notice. That, in part, killed my urge to finish the story, because being told that the entire framework for your trilogy is fucked beyond repair kind of makes it hard to work up the willpower to finish.

Such is part of why MoC is so stressful for me. I have to divergent feelings about the story.

1. MoC's basic conceit is pretty fucked and in such a way I literally cannot repair it.
2. MoC is a learning process and a story I still want to tell.

And whether 1 or 2 has more sway over me changes from day to day.


There's so much I wish I could magically fix. My mental image of Marcone and his personality has drastically changed from when I started writing MoC, and writing MoC!Marcone is something of a hardship, compared to the canon!Marcone. In all honesty, I consider the Marcone from the Bakery AU to be more in line with canon than MoC!Marcone.

That is a WIP is another difficulty. The aforementioned person who ripped me a new one about MoC did so having only read it in part. Their assessment isn't wrong (no assessment is "wrong", see: Death of the Author) and it made it clear my authorial intent is weak at best. In my mind, other things the road to hell is paved with revolves around an unbalanced relationship. putting out your fires with gasoline is supposed to be the other shoe dropping, with Harry and John's partnership becoming more equal and John fucking up pretty much every goddamn thing possible. MoC3, the storm that lit the city takes place several years down the road and complicates things further.

But readers don't know that. The haven't seen the outlines. They just have my somewhat shitty writing to go off. When someone says something disheartening that I think I disagree with, I can't very well get into an argument with them about it. It's unfair to the extreme.

And yet, because I am a delicate fucking flower, it kills my muse anyway and stresses me out.


Complicated feelings aside, I do want to finish it. In fact, I really want to write the third book. MoC3 is fucked up and tackles just how far from the straight and narrow Harry has wound up over the course of MoCverse. And it has some prickly issues with John that I am dying to share, because just thinking about it makes me want a curly moustache to twirl.

It's just a matter of getting there. Working up the muse and setting aside the inherent issues of the story just to finish it.

So yeah. Those are my thoughts right now. Actual dictionary-definition ambivalence.

Comments

[silentstep]

Okay, so. I kind of have a lot of flaily things I want to say, but I am not sure how best to say them/if they are relevant/if they are things that would be... helpful, I guess, or just things you don't want to hear, and obviously they are coming from a fairly biased source, given that you know I love MoC ridiculous amounts. Like, it is one of my top favorite fanworks that I have ever read.

And sure, some of that is because it appeals to me personally. There is a (highly polarizing) fic in the Avatar: the Last Airbender fandom called Embers, that I also love very dearly, and I am very willing to admit that it has some flaws (seriously, count how many times she uses dryly, wryly, levelly, or a close variation in a single page). But it's a fic that's so full of my favorite kind of worldbuilding and complex character development and such vivid imagination and nuance and her original characters are to die for, they have so much life, and basically in conclusion she could describe every single line of dialogue as having been said wryly and I would. Not. Care.

I think of it a lot when I try and talk about MoC, because in some ways I like it for the same reasons-- the way it hits all the things I love, really, really well. Embers does it for gen fic, MoC has the additional appeal of all the things I love in a romance. You gave me free rein to make whatever edits I wanted in the name of personal satisfaction when printing it, and as I go through and make little edits here and there, I am using that-- but pretty much only in order to add hyphens to linked adjectives, because there’s nothing I would change about the actual content. Really nothing. Because I think it’s fantastic, and I love it. There isn’t really anything analogous to Embers’ excessive use of “dryly”.

As to the power dynamics: a.) This is Harry Dresden and John Marcone. They are not going to be well-adjusted. But as you had Harry say in… um, a chapter… they can find something that works for them.

b.) At the risk of oversharing, I do want to point out that a relationship with a slightly tilted balance of power might hold appeal. You know, for some. Or so I heard. I might have, uh, this friend with kind of a fealty kink.

But more importantly, c.) I think you’ve been doing a really good job portraying it honestly and realistically and facing the problems that ensue, and throughout Book II they’ve been redefining some boundaries and working their way towards a dynamic that works better for them. And I have absolute faith that as we read on, you’ll be able to bring them to a place where they can be happy, in a way that feels natural for them.

I am trying to read the actual Dresden Files books by Jim Butcher. I’ve now read Storm Front, Fool Moon, skimmed Small Favor, and read all the bits of White Night with Marcone in. (I do intend to try and read all of it, but we’ll see whether I actually do.) I can give you a laundry list of all the things I don’t like about Butcher’s Harry, about Butcher’s writing style, about the supporting characters I’ve met so far… I’m trying to hold off on my judgement until I’ve read more, but right now, I very actively dislike the books. MoC is better on any number of levels, and if you’d be interested, I can readily articulate plenty of opinions on how and why. So yes, I am biased, but honestly, I don’t see why you feel you have any sort of obligation to make your Marcone closer to Butcher’s. I like yours just fine. Your versions of the characters are the versions I fell in love with in the first place, and with very, very good reason.

Here is something about me: I will consume and enjoy all kinds of terrible media, but I will never call it good unless it is. I will say, “oh, yes, [show] is a terrible show, but I am really enjoying it!” I am actually a discerning reader in that I can tell what is good, even if something being terrible is not automatically a barrier to me enjoying it (or its fanworks). So when I tell you that your characters are compelling and interesting and relatable and have lots of fascinating facets and layers and all kinds of good good things, just as they are, please know that I do not hold this opinion in any way because I came to MoC before I came to the Dresden Files books. I am saying this because they are characters that have interiority and humanity and we get to watch them grow and change and learn and they are, basically, really great.

The way you talk about magic makes me want to know more, because it's beautiful and well-thought-out and fascinating. And I know that's you, because that's one of the biggest problems I had with Butcher, is that he didn't make his magic interesting to me. It was one of the most disappointing things about the books. But in MoC, it's... well... it's. At the risk of sounding kind of stupid and twee, it's magical. I want to peek into every detail of the MoC world, because your writing has convinced me that those details are indeed there for the viewing. Um, to use a stupid analogy, it's like looking at a really high-resolution image. Even if I never get to, I know that if I could zoom, there would be so much more there. And I want to know it! I want to know where the plot is going. I am biting my nails as to what's going to happen with the White Court. I am desperate to read John and Harry's conversation in the aftermath of what Harry just went through. I want to know what's going on with Molly and how that's going to develop, I want to know if Franklin is okay (omg omg omg I am so scared for him, if he's not okay then don't tell me about it and I will continue to imagine that he's just fine shh), I want to know more about how-- everything. If you don't write it, I will respect your decision. But oh! I am hoping that you do write it, because I love this story, and I want to read the rest of it. And then I will want to read more of it.

I’ve told you before about my lack of a sense of time, how to me personally there is little to no difference between three weeks from now and three months from now; they’re both “not now,” and while it sucks that they’re “not now” it doesn’t much matter to my perception if it takes longer. So I, at least, am willing to wait; if you put up Book III three years from now I will in all likelihood be hysterically super-excited and devour it and lament that there is not more, and then start over at the beginning. Again. Forever.

So yeah. tl;dr-- I love, love, love MoC, I don’t think you need to change anything, I am greatly, greatly looking forward to more, but take your time and write it when you want to. I am confident it will be awesome.

I'm sorry for being so tl;dr at you argh I am going to go away now goodnight internets

[silentstep]

oh dear that was even longer than I realized. a lot longer.
I'm so sorry, I probably should have just e-mailed that and not left you a comment longer than your actual post. Good grief, self, go to sleep.

[luciazephyr]

DON'T APOLOGIZE

but um give me until morning to reply intelligently

because I have MANY THINGS I wanna discuss (esp. re: Butcher's handling of magic SO MANY THOUGHTS ON THAT)

but first I need to sleep

[luciazephyr]

I sympathize with overuse of words. One day I will check to see how many times I use "desert dry" or a derivative thereof to describe someone's sense of humor.


One of my biggest hang-ups is that a lot of the issues I know now, but didn't realize when I was writing it. I cannot express how much I've learned from the TDF fandom, and recognizing power imbalances and consent issues is one of them. I mean, some of the issues were completely by design. But I know that, I know that's my angle, but my readers don't, and it bothers me more than it should when people think I intend John and Harry's relationship to be healthy and perfect. I'm hoping with Hendrick's POV interlude, I can handle some of that--

But that's not going to help the people who fail out of the story because of those issues and don't get tot he point where the power dynamics are dealt with. I think I'm going to revise the AO3 series page with a note about MoC being very much about evolving power dynamics and, as you said, tied to a pretty unsubtle fealty kink.

Hell, the impetus of the story, Grene's original prompt, was about Marcone getting fed up with how sloppy the supernatural world is, overthrowing it, and winning Harry as spoils of war. And that was very much in my mind when I was drafting the trilogy out.


Oddly enough, I actively dislike a lot of the series as well. I loathe Proven Guilty and Turn Coat with a fiery passion, and I have lackluster feelings about everything except the Marcone-heavy books and Ghost Story. But, TBH, I think every writer I hang out with and talk shop with on a regular basis feels the same. TDF fandom, to me, is all about reclamation of mediocre, oft-problematic source text.


HMMMMM. It's not that I feel obligated to make MoC!Marcone close to canon. It's that.... my perception of his core principles has changed. Like, okay, one of the recurring jokes in MoC is John being a gourmet healthy food nut, right? That is 100% counter to what I actually think of him now. I think he shams at having good tastes, but in reality, he just wants comfort foods and simple pleasures, because he does not come from money. He's just very good at pretending to be more upper class than he is or feels.

Basically, LGI's Cross through my John characterization for a loop and lead to me re-examining the character.


MAGIC. OKAY. I'm one of the odd folks in fandom that enjoys the early books best. They are the shakiest in terms of Butcher's writing and they are the most overly sexist, but... they still give us John's defining character moments (FM) and Harry at his most interesting to me. I love Harry's love of magic in the early books. One of the passages that sticks out the most in my mind is about Harry's work being magic and his hobby being magic, and how he's a bit of a magic geek.

The saddest thing to me is that this concept of Harry being a magic geek is shelved early on. I think Butcher needed to keep Harry as an eternal layman to allow Bob to do infodumps for the readers. But I don't like it, and I like exploring Harry's magical innovations. It's going to be the driving force of the plot in Hendricks' interlude and in MoC3.


I hope I write it too, hun. 8)

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I do love Harry as a magic geek. It makes some of the other things about him make so much sense.

And, I sort of like John finding Harry as a magic geek sexy. Sort of, in that I think that's part of the attraction. It's been too long since John had the luxury of not giving a fig what other people think, so of course Harry being a poster 'child' for not giving a fig is oddly appealing. That he's more dangerous than any five fully-automatic rifles, just a bonus.

(I mention that I love Marcone's thorns? Without the moral quandries, John isn't half the character he is with them.)

[killerkaleidoscope]

Because the internet is both vast and tiny, I've actually read the Avatar fic silentstep is talking about. It's very good worldbuilding, very good writing, and normally the kind of thing I'd read twice in a row and hope for more--but I never finished it. I quit following it at a certain point because though the plot was interesting and the writing technically proficient, I didn't care for the way the author interprets certain characters. Some of those issues might've been set to be fixed in later chapters--I did, after all, never finish it--but not all. Looking at the text, it was clear that me and whoever's writing that fic have different views of canon. And to that I say: whatever. Their opinion is not my opinion, and it's a basically harmless one so I don't care what they think and vice-versa. There's other fic in the sea.

We're fans on the internet reading and writing derivative works for nothing but the fun of messing around with discarded toys. You're writing something that resonated with you and a number of other people. I personally like the way your interpretation operates, but I can see where other people might not. In any case, you're not perpetuating anything hurtful, and operating under the assumption that people read what they like and don't read what they don't like... there's always the option of accepting that they don't like it and moving on.

As for me, I love MOC. It's a very slow-burn kind of plot, long patient story lines leading up to big payoffs. I like it that way; feels more real. I know the Dresden/Marcone relationship is ten kinds of fucked up but each of them individually is twenty kinds of fucked up and enjoy watching them grind the bullshit out of each other by degrees. I cannot beta fic that doesn't make sense to me from a character standpoint. MOC is a freaking joy to beta and a whole lotta fun to read. (I've gone back and reread it from start to finish a couple times by now. Comfort reading; it's funny and smart and sweet while also being, you know, a story about a ruthless mobster who bought a wizard's soul and isn't very sorry about it. It pings my Things I Enjoy buttons on all levels.)

If you set MOC down and never pick it up again, it's your prerogative as a writer with a life of your own and I'd throw you internet hugs for knowing your limits. If you pick it up tomorrow, or two months from now, or five years, I'd throw you internet hugs on basic principle and offer to beta. As ever, it's up to you.

[luciazephyr]

That's one of the biggest ways I've grown as a writer since I started MoC and got into this fandom, I think. I mean. MoC kind of exploded past my expectations. I'm still not sure how that happened, as I still consider LGI and Binz/Shiplizard the pinnacle of long-form fic in this fandom. So I think I used to stamp my feet and go "BUT BUT BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THAT, LOOK HOW MANY PEOPLE DIDN'T SEE [x] IN THE STORY!" And now I'm like "oh, man, I can't stop seeing [x] in the story, why did I do that?"

It's all just a matter of being more self-aware now? I mean, obviously I still have a long damn way to go in that aspect, but I think I'm better and still improving.


a story about a ruthless mobster who bought a wizard's soul and isn't very sorry about it

Hahaha, yes! That's what it's about, really, that and John warping Harry's own morals until they can work together, and subsequently how John's efforts have and will continue to explode in his face.

But, and the big but, is that it seems to be suffering from Twilight Syndrome? Like, people think that I think the MoC John/Harry relationship is an epic romance and healthy relationship? And. It's not! It's so not! It works for them, sometimes, but it was founded on Stockholm-y shit and such. I like their relationship, but only only in a fictional context, if that makes sense?


IDK. I'm feeling better and better about picking it up again now. I think I've been slowly winding back towards it, ready to bring a new set of eyes and ideas to it. I don't think it's going to die out.

So dust off your beta pen. 8D

[silentstep]

Re: Embers, I definitely know that her alternate character interpretations are things that turned off a lot of folk, and I can definitely understand why. She does, though, do a lot of fixing in later chapters-- I know that it still didn't work for a lot of people, but it is there. I remember being really disappointed in her view of Azula, who even when we got chapters from her perspective seemed to be really laying it on thick about doing things For the Evulz, and then later on [x] happened and we found out [y] and all of a sudden I'd be freaking out whenever she'd put Azula in danger and going "...there's something I never thought I'd say about Embers!Azula."

But even with all my love for it I can very much tell that it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea. I just happen to like enough of the same things and characters the authoress likes to get along. So-- yes. Not trying to say something like "you should have read further", or something, because as you say, different opinions and so it is. Just confirming that yeah, she does do a lot of stuff with subverting early characterization issues. And it works for some and may not work for others.

[luciazephyr]

Wow, um. Please don't link me to F!S again. Reading that MoC made people gag isn't exactly helpful.

ETA: aaaand you deleted it yourself. huh. okay.

[everbright]

Anon-comms of any sort are bad for fanwork-producer's mental health! (Though I am sorry, as a gossip-hound, that the comm seems to be dying.)

Okay, so we have agreed to disagree before, right? You know how I'm an asshole that tells it like I see it?

I like MOC with my soul. It has GREAT world building, the characters ring true to their stated motivations, and it balances Tell and Show beautifully. There is some stuff that sets off the power-balance alarms. BUT YOU TOTALLY MAKE A POINT OF THAT. It comes across as a purposeful theme, instead of how Butcher accidentally shows off his patriarchal world-view.

To be cliché, haters to the left. Write if you want to, since you feel you have a story to tell. Stop writing when it's not good for you anymore, when it's not fun. I will wait for the rest of MOC forever, but I'll stay around regardless.

[luciazephyr]

I have no idea what you mean... The critique that I got was from a friend. I avoid anon comms (besides kinkmemes) like the plague because I really think they are very counterproductive in fandom and serve no good purpose.

This is so weird to me! It came across as a purposeful theme to you, but to others it comes across as accidental and they fail out of it. Which is fine, totally, and I'm gonna put a new trigger warning on the story soon, but... IDK where I am going with this. Just odd. Ah well.

I'm already slowly picking MoC back up again. New scene has been written. Tentative yay.

[everbright]

I meant the Fandom Secrets in your comments that was deleted, sorry, I should have been a little clearer.

Oh god yes, it came across loud and clear as a thing you were actively dealing with. Every interaction they had, when they were posturing to establish power, I could see the dynamics sloshing around.

YAAAAAY! I look forward to more MOC. Good luck!

[janie_jones]

I've been lurking and reading your stories for a long time, but I decided to finally come out of the woodwork to comment on this. I've very nearly given up on both fanfics and original fic after receiving negative feedback, and I know that no matter how many times I tell myself to suck it up and be an adult - and that it will be SO much worse if I ever do try to get published - it's still kind of soul crushing. I'll spend a week or so swearing I'm done, but in the end, I get back to it because I love to write. I know this sounds trite, but I think it's important to remember that you'll never please everyone. Write for yourself, and for the people who can appreciate you. Find people who you can count on to tell you the truth about when your writing needs work, without crossing the line from con-crit to negativity.

As for the actual substance of the story, I say that everyone goes into this knowing it's an AU, and they should understand that you're going to take the characters in your own direction. I remember raging about this after someone commented on a Mass Effect fic I was writing that 'Joker wouldn't say that.' Well, my Joker just did. I get that these are already established characters, and you have to be true to them up to a point, but we're not here because you're trying to write the next Dresden Files book. We're here to see what you can do when you put your own spin on things. It was clear from the first line of MoC that it was a 'What if?' story.

I agree that it might not be the best idea to start arguments with your readers, but just know in your own mind that they CAN be wrong. This is your story. If you personally don't like what you've written - really just don't believe in it anymore, and not that you've let yourself be swayed by others' doubts - then that's something you'll have to think seriously about. As for me, I think the power imbalance can be a tricky line to walk, but you're doing fine. Harry knows from the very beginning that it's there, and plenty of other people point it out to him, and it takes a long time to come around to a point where he's okay with it. It seems like a sane, adult decision-making process. Marcone never forces him into anything sexual, and hell, he even offers the opportunity to back out of their deal at one point. But you know what? If your idea of how the characters would behave has changed, then change them. One of my biggest complaints with any series of books is when the characters stagnate, and years pass without any kind of growth. Harry's growing into his powers and learning not to hide from his emotions, and it's putting him on a more equal footing with Marcone. So what about John? If you think he feels wrong in the first story, maybe that's how you know in what ways he needs to grow now.

Now I'm going to stop, before this turns into a novel of its own. Just don't give it up. It's obvious that you want to write this, and I think you can do it.

[luciazephyr]

There is the matter that-- I'm a big, big believer in fannish economy. That fans don't make money and do fanworks out of love for the community and passion for the material. It's really not like critiquing a published author who is asking to be paid for their work and who is a professional with more than amateur knowledge of their craft. If I call out JK Rowling for the gross shit she used on Umbridge, then she can go cry into her pile of money (to borrow an example from someone else). A fannish person doesn't have that luxury.

I'm of the opinion that crit needs to be constructive, otherwise it has no place in a fannish setting. Calling someone out over something you don't like in their fanwork is not kosher. It's especially not okay when it's unsolicited, offered while the person is in the middle of their fanwork, and without having read all of said fanwork (which is what the person who killed my muse did). It's just not helpful or beneficial to fandom in any way.

/la la la rant about fannish economy, blah blah

I SO RELATE. That's one of the crits I got on MoC. That for it to work, Harry's personality had to change. Well. Yes? That's why it's an AU and not a canon story? If I was keeping everything the same, I could just ship people copies of the Dresden books.

also omg another Mass Effect fan. AAAAAH. GARRUS IS THE BESTEST. MORDIN IS MY BEST FRIEND. I HATE CASEY HUDSON WITH THE POWER OF A MILLION SUNS. 8D 8D 8D


You are right. They can be wrong. Sometime happened about two days ago that made me open my eyes on the person who gave me the negative critique on MoC. Her opinion is no longer valid because of something she did. It's been a shitty process, but now I'm more determined than ever to finish MoC, because I know what it's about and I know where it's going, and if she has a problem with the story, she can go read something else. If this post and the emails I've gotten in response to it tell me anything, it's that my readers are a lot smarter than she presumed, and I think y'all will like what happens when the other shoe drops on John Marcone. It's gonna be awesome.

So. Like. Thank you. For all the thoughts. I love reading what folks get out of MoC and squeeing over the meta surrounding it. MoC will definitely keep going-- I'm just in the process of moving to Florida, so it's slow right now.

[robinade]

I'm another one of those people in the Dresden fandom that hasn't really read the books. I've got a few of them on my shelf (including Proven Guilty-- it was at a garage sale! I didn't know any better!) but I haven't been able to get into them. Every time I try, it's like..... the fanfiction was better than this.

The Matter of Chicago was definitely one of my favorite reads in the fandom. I love love looove a long story I can sink my teeth into and the slow burn romance in MoC makes me sigh with happiness. I totally got that their relationship was unhealthy and that you were aware of that. Having read your other works and chatted with you myself, I felt it was pretty clear that you were writing these flawed characters fumbling towards a more healthy relationship-- but making many a mistake along the way.

I'm excited that you're writing more in this 'verse, but to be honest I'd be excited no matter what you were writing. As much as I enjoyed MoC, my favorite story of yours is definitely the Stars and Scones Bakery universe (btw when is Grene going to write Marcone's pov I neeeeeeeed iiiiit). I have re-read that fic over a dozen times, and I'm not being hyperbolic. Basically I love the way your write Dresden, and the way you write period. You have the perfect balance of luring us in with humor, killing us gently with angst, and then making it all better with a happy ending.

tl;dr YOU ARE AMAZING I LOVE YOU WRITE WHATEVER YOU WANT AS LONG AS YOU WRITE PLZ

[luciazephyr]

I have so much boiling rage about Proven Guilty. Ugh, I had to read Twilight for a criticism in Speech class once and PG is worse, IMO. HATE.

GRENE IS WORKING ON THE MARCONE POV. I get bits of it from her periodically and it is fucking hilarious. Like, oh my god. It's beautiful. I can't even. /flails

THANK YOU. I'm so thrilled you like my writing. That's always great to hear. 8D I wish I didn't have so much prep for moving to Florida to take care of, it's eating into my writing time. But either way, MoC is getting continued, I promise. 8D

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

While I do think more of Butcher's id is showing than wise, I 'can' read a lot of PG as a piece of stuff Harry's pulled on himself. Like dumping the water on himself when Maeve was macking on him by proxy. There is serious skeeve to using Harry's POV to 'reveal' Molly in the way Butcher does.

I'd like it much better if Harry would slap his hands over his eyes or stick his fingers in his ears at various points. And the boyfriend should have hit him like a fleet of bright yellow cluebuses.

Marcone, would you please talk to Dresden on these issues? (And yes, it is bad when your wizard needs enlightenment from the local crime boss.)

[audrabmv]

fwiw, I love this story. I'm not all that active in fandom, but this is one of my favorite Dresden reads. I wish you all the best in putting your upset and difficulties aside and finishing it if that's what you want and/or need to do, and I also wish you the best in putting it aside if it turns out that's what will bring you peace. Because like I said, I really do love the story, but if its got your muse all twisted up, that's hell for you as a writer and that's just bad news all around.

[samjohnsson]

Any writer writing a long series finds things they want to fix, ways to adjust their tone, and repurposes their plot, from J.K. Rowling to J.R.R. Tolkien. Are the issues in it worth continuing? Can you address—even if by lampshading—them in MoCIII? Because yes, I do agree that there are issues with MoC, but I think that, given any amount of fidelity to canon characterizations, the issues are still going to be issues, because canon is that borderline.

I think one of the hardest tasks to do is to separate a work from your self. Yes, the conceit behind the story is a little fucked and is approaching as fucked as canon in certain ways (it's not that bad, yet). Truth be told, as the writer I know you are, at some point you're going to again want to write something that skeeves you out. One of the things I remember discussing with you is that you wanted it to diverge, so that MoC!John is different for the purposes of drawing elements of Harry out—that's acceptable in my head. From that point of view, I think it'll be a good exercise.

Let me also say this about "authorial intent" and clarity, and some about communication theory (this is very simplified, and there are many more breakpoints):

sender > encoding > message > decoding > recipient

No matter how well the author encodes the work in narrative "English", if the recipient chooses to decode using narrative "Dyirbal", the message will be significantly warped. In this case, you have the additional fun of a different message prepped for encoding than sie has decoded. Stop reading, say, Romeo & Juliet at the end of Act III versus the end of Act V. Or Star Wars after Empire as opposed to after Jedi.

I think, from what I'm seeing and what I know of you, that you, if only for yourself, need to finish MoCIII, so that you can properly address the issues raised. Until then, I wouldn't worry as much about criticism and be proud of the overall positive reception it's received.

First thoughts. Responses?

[luciazephyr]

What's really getting me about the original negative criticism and the reaction to this post was that... Person In Question seemed to assume that everyone else was decoding the message in a bad way, and that if they enjoyed the story, they were clearly bad people. Which... /waves at all these fukken comments, man That's clearly not the case?

So my stand right now is that I know MoC is a bit fucked in the conceit but that's... kind of the point? And from now on I'm just gonna assume that if your reading along, that is what you are here for.

If there are people who think that the unhealthy aspects of the core dynamic are a good thing... that's really not my business. I cannot watch over everyone's shoulder to scold them if they dare to interpret the text differently than I intended.

And for fuck's sake, that doesn't make me a bad person, PIQ, you asshole, rant rant whatever

So. Responses? Yes. Basically. Funnily enough, since PIQ shit on me for MoC all over again, I'm feeling 150% better about it. So there is that. 8D

[samjohnsson]

So it sounds like the "fault" (if any) is more in the PiQ is projecting hir own interpretation around. It happens - ask me about the Shakespeare classes I've taken some time.

::hugs:: spite as motivational tool. I like it! ^.-

[luciazephyr]

You laugh, but that's pretty much it. My actualfacts train of thought is "you insulted my readers, they deserve better, and I am gonna give them better, and I bite my thumb at you sir-dame!"

[samjohnsson]

There are not a few works in the English canon that are written the way they are because an editor told the writer that their readers weren't smart enough to appreciate the works.

[barometry]

This post and the comments are very interesting, so thanks for sharing. I confess that when you first posted that you were taking a step back from MoC because someone had pointed out to you the huge glaring problems with the story, problems you couldn't fix, I was filled with curiosity. (I considered the possibility that it was something I missed as a non-writer myself. Was there some clear failure of plot and/or characterization, I wondered?)

Like many of the previous commenters, I've enjoyed MoC largely because it explores the evolution of the power balance between John and Harry. I enjoy reading stories in which people figure out how to make what is objectively an unhealthy relationship scenario work for them. (I also enjoy reading about relationships I would sprint away from and/or counsel people to leave IRL -- so, you know...) I really look forward to seeing how this all develops over the course of the rest of putting out your fires with gasoline and MoC3.

Oddly enough, it was just earlier this week that I found myself re-reading all of other things the road to hell is paved with on AO3 -- it's definitely one of the long-form stories I read as comfort fic. Partly that's because I enjoy reading about supernatural problems being dealt with with ruthless efficiency (but at the same time waiting for the other shoe to drop, since that ruthless efficiency comes from the mob), partly because I enjoy reading about powerful characters fall into would-be-creepy-in-real-life intense relationships, in large part because I really enjoy your writing. So thank you!

(And hum, just realized that this is maybe a strange stalkery kind of post, since I don't think I follow your journal, though I check it occasionally anyway. Perhaps I'll fix that?)

[majoline]

Ok, I made it here post-fic and even though you don't know me from Adam, I just wanted to say I frikken loved loved LOVED your fic. It's really drawn me into the fandom even.

I kinda like the books the same way I like most mainstream media these days, with a grain of salt, tequila and a lemon. But I have a massive fealty kink and a love of watching messed up people in relationships bumbling their way toward being better people together. You addressed the magical problems and lampshaded the consent problems that Butcher doesn't ever even realize are there and there are hot porny times. Win-win-win.

I think that is where the person who upset you fell short in their criticism, besides calling everyone stupid. So much media today doesn't recognize how fucked up the worldview it espouses is but you make it pretty clear that the story isn't about how quality the situation is. Even in your MoC1, it's really obvious that they're not perfect people and their relationship isn't perfect. There's just not a lot of attention spotlighted on the issues there because that's the honeymoon period in their relationship, that's all.

(And heh, what you were saying about Marcone up top? I can never get a read on that man. Sometimes I think he's more home-y and sometimes I think he's more snobbish. ~~He's a chameleon.~~)

Uh, thank you for sharing your fic, ♥♥♥